Interview: Yap State Governor Henry Falan

 TFB= The Fourth Branch - Micronesia
HF: Henry Falan
(November 10, 2022)

TFB: Your initial campaign ran on a platform of transparency and anti-corruption. What do you think your impeachment and office has meant with regards to corruption and transparency?

HF: This question, in my opinion, has less to do with my impeachment and more to do with the refusal of the citizens of Yap to stand up and demand their elected representatives in the legislature do something. I was transparent at all times during my administration; however, I do believe my impeachment was politically motivated and the legislature used my executive order to begin the impeachment proceedings.

Transparency, accountability and honesty were cornerstones of my campaign in 2018 and continued throughout my time if office. I tried my best to be true to those promises. With that promise firmly in mind, I met with the legislature twice during my time in office in my conference room away from the formal chamber of the legislature.

The first time, I requested that they work together with me and my cabinet before presenting and discussing issues to hash out our differences and attempt to come to a mutual agreement before going public. It is my belief that this type of back-and-forth discussion does not need to be open to public scrutiny and should be held privately. However, the people are still entitled to know the final decision. The discussions and arguments beforehand can lead to bad thoughts and misinterpretations of what is said between the negotiators.

The second time I invited members of the legislature to meet with me, I proposed that the members of the legislature’s three standing committees – a) Finance, b) Health & Welfare, and c) Resources, Education and Development – work with my cabinet members who are responsible for each of those relevant areas to help formulate ideas, plans and budgets. Such collaboration would ensure that there would be less wasted time spent in back-and-forth discussion during legislative sessions when the budgets are presented, since at least three members of each of the related standing committees would be fully apprised and aware of the issues.

But they did not follow through on either of these proposals for collaboration, or other occasions when I openly and publicly presented opportunities and recommendations.

TFB: You have spoken openly in opposition to ETG’s investment proposals. Is your disapproval based on the scale of ETG’s proposals, for example their 10,000-room resort? Or are you opposed to the idea of Chinese investments in Yap?

Falan: Yap is increasingly finding itself at the mercy of China - Island Times

HF: There is no question that Yap needs foreign investment because we neither have the resources nor the technical know-how or expertise. I also believe vehemently that we cannot pattern our development after foreign blueprints. I have always said that I love people anywhere and everywhere, but I don’t like crooks. I never opposed any nationality, including the Chinese, approaching Yap with proposals and solid plans. However, I’ve read and heard a lot about the PRC’s human rights record around the world which really worries me. I agree that I was apprehensive, knowing ETG is a Chinese company. I was the speaker of the legislature when they arrived in Yap. I pressed then Gov. Anafel hard to get them to produce a plan for the leadership to decide if it was acceptable or not in part or in whole so we could inform them of any uncompromisable grounds they were proposing.

At the time of ETG’s fancy promises of the 10,000-room resort, golf courses, and other tourist amenities, Guam had around 4,600 hotel rooms total and Palau had around 1,200 rooms. The impact of a 10,000-room resort on Yap’s fragile infrastructure, sewer and water systems, power grid, hospitals, schools, housing and all the rest was beyond comprehension for me. Those things take time to build and Yap is a small island with only 7,000 residents living on private land that cannot be sold to foreigners. I was being very practical while others only saw the revenue that was promised without realistic data.

After seeing the foreign investment agreement, I saw the need for a conflict resolution clause between Yap and ETG that could be brought to the table for resolution. ETG insisted that any disagreements be handled in Singapore, which would, in my opinion, guarantee that Yap would lose since we do not have the capacity to hire legal counsel there. How could Yap afford that?

But those things, and more, were never addressed. I kept demanding a proposal, but they only gave us an investment agreement that Anafel signed to my dismay. There was no solid plan and the “benefits” they listed included the phrase “when feasible.” To my way of thinking, this indicated the benefits like new roads and a state-of-the-art hospital, might never happen

TFB: More on the ETG proposal - In a Pacific Island Times article, you were quoted saying, “We are now left with internal bullying, corruption, and no accountability by a faction among our leaders who are influenced and backed by foreigners”. Are you concerned that after your removal from office the “bullying” and “corruption” could escalate?

Falan: Yap is increasingly finding itself at the mercy of China (pacificislandtimes.com)

AH: If I were not concerned, I would not have sought the office of governor. I wanted to do the right things instead of continuing to do things right. In my situation when certain members of the legislature decided to get me out of the way by finding an excuse for my impeachment, there was no due process in place. The Yap State Constitution does not have a clause requiring due process through the court system for the defendant to plead his or her case. And, during the hearing, the legislature would not allow my attorney to talk. It was a kangaroo court. After the first vote that resulted in one less vote than needed to impeach me, a second vote was taken a few weeks later that revealed one member who had changed his vote to make a majority for impeachment. It is believed that he complied to threats by other members of the legislature.

As for corruption, Louis Lukan who is a member of the traditional Council of Pilung revealed that he was given $3,000 by ETG’s representative in Yap, Yang Gang. When Yang Gang suddenly arrived in Lukan’s office with an envelope containing $100 bills, he told Lukan it was “a small gift, a little present from [ETG] Chairman Deng Hong.” Lukan reported the money to his municipal council in Rumung and his fellow villagers and they decided publicly and openly to return the money. If ETG gave this money to Lukan, it is widely believed that they gave either the same amount or more to the other nine members.

Other incidents point to bullying and corruption that is still going on, but it’s hard to prove since it is always done out of the public eye and the victims often choose to remain silent for fear that they and their families will suffer the consequences with no opportunity for the court to intervene.

So, has bullying and corruption continued? It’s hard for me to prove that, but the fact that Lukan was given bribe money, the fact that I was not given due process, I don’t know what else to add. But, yes, I believe there is still bullying and corruption going on. But I am hopeful that the November election will bring in fresh blood and ideas to change Yap for the better. Many people both on and off island have become aware of the situation and spoken out against it on social media.

TFB: What are your thoughts on the FSM siding with the PRC on the “one China policy”?

HF:Being blunt, this One China policy should not even be a conversation in FSM. It’s not an FSM issue; it’s internal to other, outside countries and we should refrain from taking a stand on it. We cannot dictate to China or Taiwan any more than they can or should to FSM. We should respect and honor friend we already have, and carefully make new alliances with creditable and honorable regimes.

The first governor of Yap, the late, great John de Avila Mangefel, once said (and I paraphrase here) the people are first born into a state, not the FSM. In an interview in the Sept/Oct 1982 issue of Pacific Magazine when asked if he welcomed outsiders in Yap State, he replied, “Yes and no. We all know that we need investment to develop this area. However, sometime back the Yap State Legislature required that any investment from the outside must involve local people. And I believe in that. We welcome outside investment as long as it is in partnership with the local people…”

I agreed wholeheartedly then and agree now with this wise man – development, education and health services must be community-based from the grassroots level so that we can have ownership.

The role of the National should only be to facilitate resources and coordinate services to the states. Their role is to supplement, not supplant. Today, it is difficult for the president’s office dealing with four governors in very different states, cultures and even languages, to come to common ground on what is needed to meet their diverse needs.

TFB: Are you concerned that by joining China’s Belt and Road initiative in 2017, the FSM is in danger of slipping into a debt trap? China welcomes Micronesia's role in Belt and Road - China - Chinadaily.com.cn

HF: I prefer not to comment other than what I have already said. I have what some would term a crude opinion about China’s motives regarding their well-known and documented human rights violations.

TFB: If the FSM becomes a victim of debt diplomacy with China, how do you see that affecting our relationship with the USA? Will this affect the COFA agreement?

China’s Debt Diplomacy – Foreign Policy

HF: This is another rhetorical question if anyone would not think it would affect the relationship. We cannot afford to get caught up in “paralysis by analysis.” We also cannot use logic if the situation is illogical.

TFB: The former president of Kiribati, Anote Tong, advocated for “migration with dignity” due to climate change. The plan would effectively prepare their citizens to emigrate to other countries with the skills and abilities to become productive new immigrants. Should the FSM follow this model of migration? Kiribati Prepares for 'Migration With Dignity' to Confront the Ravages of Climate Change (thewire.in)

HF: The main island of Yap is not going underwater like Kiribati and other islands so this is not relevant, in my opinion, for Yap proper. As for the Outer Islands that are experiencing saltwater infiltration in their taro patches, they have a much larger island to come to if climate change threatens their small island. We should capitalize on building self-sufficiency, as I have stated in other media, not only by rightsizing the government, but implementing equal pay for equal work, upgrading living standards and bringing back those who go off island for their education. Another effective strategy would be to invite mentors from the U.S. to work alongside our government officials and private business owners for a one-year or longer period of time to provide guidance, resources and information – a kind of on-site informal schooling and training – that will improve our work ethic and output dramatically in my opinion. I recently wrote an article for the Pacific Island Times about the possible return of Peace Corps volunteers to Yap. I stated that we no longer need young English teachers; rather, we need experienced professionals, like those who were sent in prior years under the banner of Peace Corps Response Volunteers. They were willing to ask the hard questions that no Yapese are willing to discuss, and were able to mentor our workforce – to capacity build – from the bottom to the top. An organized plan for on-going mentorship, while developing our own mentors, would jumpstart Yap straight into intervention to halt the brain drain that we are suffering from.

We should not be afraid of having students leave for a higher education. If there are opportunities for them to come back home and join a robust workforce or start their own businesses, they will not be as likely to stay abroad. Lubuw Falanruw is one who went away for his education, created a successful career through entrepreneurship in Hawaii, and is now ready and eager to return to Yap to establish a business that promises to bring in significant revenue as well as provide good jobs.

Had Lubuw’s iBoom lease been approved, he would be operational by now and that would be a dynamic game-changer for Yap on a myriad of fronts. Yap would be able to bring information and education to the students while they still live with their families in the community, and not have to travel abroad for education thus subjecting themselves to culture shock wherein they must catch up before they even begin studying. By the time they return home, they need to re-Yapese themselves.

One of the hard questions that must be addressed if Outer Islanders are forced by the rise in sea levels to move to the main island is the discrimination they face.

TFB: In June 2021, you stated your support for the US military to increase their presence in Yap. Even as far as building a base in Yap. How would you respond to critics who say that having a US military base is worse than having Chinese investors leasing properties for commercial use? Falan to back military presence in Yap: 'Whatever they want to do, just do it!' (pacificislandtimes.com)

HF: You have only to look at how the Chinese have operated in other locations around the Pacific and world to answer that question. False promises, secret deals, human rights issues, debt diplomacy and more seem to be their way of working. The U.S. military, on the other hand, respect and endeavor to work with the people and their communities openly and directly.

In 1963, the U.S. Coast Guard had a station on Yap and built a LORAN (long-range navigation) station six miles north of Colonia. That was the biggest investment that ever came to Yap. Built by the Coast Guard with a concrete plan, the chiefs decided only the municipalities involved would talk about it. As a result, there was very little controversy about it since it was essentially community-based. In addition to the LORAN station, the road system was built by a Hawaii-based corporation. If the military could do that then, why not now, especially since they’re given in the compact military privileges over our area. Their presence will be a major boost to the economy in terms of revenue and jobs.

TFB: The FSM continues to have the highest enlistment of citizens into the US armed forces. Should we promote military enlistment over a college education?

For U.S. Military Recruits Living in Micronesia, Guam and other Pacific Islands, the Logistics of Enlistment Can be a Challenge · United Service Organizations (uso.org)

HF: Those choices are best left to the individuals and their families. It’s a privilege that, while it’s nice to get an education, at some point the education is not free and not many islanders can afford the cost of a higher education unless they get scholarships. I believe it should be left to personal choice while it’s the government’s responsibility to offer those opportunities.

TFB: What are your thoughts on the current compact funding renegotiations? Are there provisions in the compact that you would like to see added, removed, or changed?

Continuing Compact Negotiations Between the United States and the Federated States of Micronesia in San Francisco – FSM Embassy

HF: That is best to leave it up to our negotiating team. I can only opine.

The postal services should be reinstated; the current postal service leaves ample room for improvement. Every resident in Yap has a story about mail and packages that took months to arrive.

I also believe that any and all programs should include a mentoring component. It’s not enough to dole out money and expect the results when people don’t know how to manage the programs. Over the years, consultants have been sent in to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars to the state. Based on short stays and slight research, they drop off proposals and plans that are then shelved to collect dust because no one knows how to implement them. Trainers also are flown in to train groups in various skills, but again there is no long-term follow-through and nothing changes. Adding a mentoring component to the programs will realize greater returns and changes to the calcified system.

When the owner of the Okeanos Vaka canoes, Mr. Dieter Paulmann, offered to provide support and training for the crew that would lead to long-term self-sufficiency. He truly and sincerely wanted to help Yap revive traditional canoe-making and navigation skills that would benefit Yap and its Outer Islands. He was not looking for monetary gain for himself; it was totally altruistic. But, again, the legislature could not see past their own noses and did not understand the solid plan that he and his team presented.

TFB: After nearly 40 years of the Compact, the FSM, the ROP, and the RMI have seen mass migrations of its populations to the United States. By several metrics, the visa-free travel provision of the compact has been detrimental to both parties (USA and COFA countries). Would you consider our visa-free access to the US as a generally bad policy? If yes, how would you fix it?

Compact Impact | U.S. Department of the Interior (doi.gov)

HF: Actually, the so-called mass migration is one of the best things that ever happened in the COFA entities. The result is freedom and opportunities for all FSM citizens. Imagine if no one could leave Yap and had to live under the current government, education, medical and other systems. They would be miserable, uneducated and unaware of the larger world with no economic opportunities. To me, this question is a no-brainer. But it also refers to the issue of dual citizenship that has been discussed during the ConCons, the subject of referendums that failed, and is once again included in the recent ConCon list. I believe it should be allowed. People should have a choice. The U.S. and many other countries allow dual citizenship, why not the FSM?

TFB: The “brain drain” is defined as the emigration of skilled and educated people from their country. The FSM has suffered from this since the inception of the Compact. What measures do you think we can take to stop or mitigate this problem?

Brain Drain and its Determinants: A Major Issue for Small States by Michel A. R. Beine, Frédéric Docquier, Maurice Schiff :: SSRN

HF: This is a misconstrued question because we don’t have many skilled workers to begin with, but we do have a lot of young people who are highly motivated and have become educated abroad and are so skilled that they don’t have incentives to come back after they acquire the skills.

The point being, we might not be suffering from the “brain drain”, but from “brain dead” policies that we keep repeating while expecting different results.

As to potential measures to remedy the challenge, if iBoom becomes operational, we could easily develop some of these skills while still living in Yap.

This goes back to the issues that I mentioned before – low wages, lack of appropriate training, etc.

TFB: In your recent article in the Pacific Islands Times, “The Return of the Peace Corps”, you write, “we need mentors and partners with several years of practical experience under their belts to provide useful applications of skills and knowledge, not just offer up academic and abstract ideas.” Could this lead to heavy dependency on the Peace Corps? If for example, their mission leans away from an educational one and more towards one of aide and service?

The Return of the Peace Corps Experienced professionals wanted (pacificislandtimes.com)

HF: Beware of “paralysis by analysis.” There are so many assumptions in this question. When given the opportunity, people will make informed choices. Mentorship, in my opinion, is for a short-term basis to jumpstart manpower development and will result not just in better skilled, more informed and robust workforce, but also those who are mentored and trained with follow-up support will be able to become trainers themselves.

TFB: Yap has seen two high profile incidents of violence towards foreigners. One in 2009 and one in 2019. Are these signs of growing anti-foreign sentiments or are they separate and unrelated incidences? GUN LAWS

Habele: Missionary Murdered in Yap, Micronesia (Kirsten Elisabeth Wolcott)

Murder in Yap: sleepy Pacific island rocked by shooting of American lawyer | Micronesia | The Guardian

HF: Those two incidents are unrelated, however, at the same time, this question is another example of “paralysis by analysis.” These unfortunate and reprehensible incidents are not anything against any foreigners. They are rooted in the family values and the community values that used to be so strong and a source of survivability before the Compact. This thinking is an attempted avoidance of putting the responsibility on the parents, their family and the respective community. Those people made an error in judgement because they don’t have the right kind of rearing. We need to strengthen our value systems – personal, family, and community values.

TFB: One of the more popular proposals in the Constitutional Convention is to allow dual citizenship. Where do you stand on this proposal?

Dual citizenship vote in upcoming FSM special election | Guam News | postguam.com

HF: I am all for dual citizenship with the United States.

TFB: Any other proposals from our con-con that you’d like to highlight?

HF: An original proposal from Yap leadership was to put a provision in the ConCon on the manner of seceding from FSM is one that I believe in and would like to see. Many states have tried to secede, but there’s no provision for it in the constitution. So knowing there is interest, why not pave the way for it.

TFB: After an impressive effort by our government to keep COVID-19 out of the FSM, COVID-19 is now in our states. Any thoughts on the lockdown, quarantine, vaccinations, and now our recovery?

Micronesia’s First COVID-19 Outbreak Balloons, Causing Alarm – The Diplomat

HF: I give credit to my emergency task force for their months of hard work preparing for the opening of the border and arrival of Covid-19. Without their preparation, the final effect would have been significantly worse. As it was, Yap has not seen a wide-spread, devastating impact. But it also has a lot to do with discipline and common sense and being good neighbors – being each other’s brothers and sisters – and being conscious of the potential impact to the whole community. When the whole community is advanced, individuals will be, too. We knew we could not simply be left in isolation; we needed to prepare and prepare we did. I also want to give credit to Pres. Panuelo for taking the lead and making certain everyone knew it was their responsibility to prepare. The pandemic opened everyone’s eyes to the need for Yap to get more trained personnel in all areas of health and public safety. But the closing of the border encouraged people to leave the island. Some needed off-island medical care; but others left for Guam, Hawaii and the U.S. for better opportunities.

TFB: COVID-19 severely affected our tourism industry. How can our tourism industry recover from the fallout of the pandemic?

Initial Economic Impact of COVID-19 Reported for Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, and Palau |

U.S. Department of the Interior (doi.gov)

HF: What do you think? What’s your proposal? I feel I did my part to help support the tourism and other businesses that experienced the abrupt drop in outside visitors when the border closed by presenting my proposal to appropriate 1) $3 million to help the business establishments during the Covid-19 border closure and 2) $1 million as a stimulus to help individual employees who were being laid off by the sudden closure of such tourism-related businesses as hotels and their restaurants, dive shops, and tour operators. They ignored my request and never acted on it. It’s a good thing that the U.S. came through and provided funding to help employees who were laid off and businesses that had to close. We need to be willing to take risks and responsibility for our actions.

TFB: Other than tourism, what other industry should the FSM or Yap focus on?

HF:iBoom. Let’s start there together with the Okeanos Vaka canoes.

One thing I was excited about when I was director of education was how education could…and still can…help revive the necessary and practical survival skills that parallel the way our ancestors used to live. We can promote our culture thru education. We can showcase and market the Yapese culture to tourism. There is, in my opinion, everything there that can make money for the people and the community. Showcasing our culture in a positive way that is true to our traditions without being overly commercialized, is one of the only things we have that no one else in the world can offer. Learning our culture from birth for our personal and family survival helps us to live in Yap. The COP should buckle down to revive what remnants they have of the remaining culture and traditions and create opportunities for visitors to experience and participate in them.

I was pushing thru education to produce a live recording, an oral history, before people died. We have enough educated, responsible people to retain and promote their knowledge and skills – weaving, canoe building, navigation, carving, food preparation, traditional fishing, dancing, etc. People pay good money for adventure tourism like that. Very good money.

In Maap in the 1970s, Bill Aker booked the Lindblad cruise line to come to Yap. Customs and immigration went out to the ship to process the passengers and then they took zodiacs from the ship and brought the passengers ashore. We staged a cultural center where people set up their handicrafts, weavings, carvings and other items for sale. We also staged a dance and other activities. It was very popular and gave exposure to the crafters and other people who were involved. If we’d kept it up, it would have delvoeped into a traditoina skills school that I wanted to build in Yap at the time. But, like so many things in Maap municipality, there was no more follow through; people quickly lost interest and were not willing to put in the time and effort needed to keep it going. Since then, in recent years, there’s been a small number of small cruise lines and private group tours in small airplanes that have come in and been entertained. Thanks to Manta Ray’s organizing. And there were other things in the planning by the visitors bureau before the pandemic hit to bring in group tours interested in World War II. I am hoping the staff at YVB takes up those plans again and makes them come to fruition for the long-term and not just one time only.

TFB: In April of 2019, the Council of Pilung requested Yap’s Legislative branch to declare Joyce McClure of the Pacific Island Times, persona non grata. The reason for the request stemmed from claims of “disruptive” journalism. Ultimately the move was a public statement that Ms. McClure is no longer welcome in Yap.

In light of this reaction, what is your opinion of free press in Yap/FSM? Can Yap/FSM have objective and even subjective journalism? Journalist Responds to Claims of Creating 'turmoil' by Yap Chiefs — The Fourth Branch (TFBmicronesia.com)

HF: First and foremost, in my opinion is yes, we need a strong and independent free press. The question of whether we can or not, I don’t want to answer that. There was another foreign journalist who moved from Yap to Pohnpei and was deported persona non grata. She was not an American and did not have the protection of the Compact like an American citizen does. I despise secrecy of matters in the public domain by public officials, but I don’t have control over it. During my time in office, I generated press releases and authored articles. I was not afraid of a negative story about Yap. It makes us more honest and transparent when we work with the press and not against it. We need press; if there was – and had been -- a free press during my time in office, I would have welcomed the opportunity to come together with the legislature to answer questions. “Disruptive” journalism as you state it, is very interesting because it’s a value judgement. We need free press; we cannot push things under the rug.

TFB: Are you endorsing any candidates in the upcoming elections?

I refrain from answering this question now.

TFB: Are you officially retired from politics? What can we expect from you in the coming years?

HF: This is a question that is near and dear to my heart, but it is one that I have always had to consult with my family and real friends first before I decide.

Interview: Grand Master Navigator, Ali Haleyalur

Relevant reading and viewing:

1. “When Permission is Absent. Misrepresentation of Micronesian Navigation Must be Corrected”.

2. “Poll: Are Polynesians Culturally Appropriating Micronesian Navigation?”

3. “Response to the Late Chad Baybayan’s Assertions, From Grand Master Navigator, Ali Haleyalur”

4. “Papa Mau: The Wayfinder” (video)

5. “The Navigators Pathfinders of the Pacific” (video)

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TFB = The Fourth Branch - Micronesia

AH = Ali Haleyalur

(June 26, 2022) (Edited: March 8, 2023)

TFB: Are you personally against Mau Piailug teaching the Hawaiians traditional navigation?

AH: No, I am not against Mau teaching the traditional navigation to the Hawaiians because I know and strongly believe that he would not give them the details like the sacred parts of our wayfinding knowledge; and, to be honest with you, every time Mau, who is my half-brother, came to Yap, he would always visit our dad and tell us all that was happening or what he gave the Hawaiians and what he did not give them.

TFB: You say in your article that, “sharing our entire knowledge of this sacred system is against our culture.” Can you please further explain this cultural taboo? Is the knowledge meant for Micronesians only? Which Micronesians? Who is responsible for deciding who can learn traditional navigation?

AH: The reason why I say that sharing the entire knowledge of this sacred system is only given to the children or nephews in the family is because of the sacred chants associated with the knowledge. They are very dangerous if you make mistakes while chanting them, and will backfire on you and the rest of the family who are the keepers of this knowledge.

Not only that, but because anyone who wants to learn this knowledge needs to pay tribute to the knowledge-keeper, or Master. In our islands, we must give more lava-lavas, coconut twine ropes and local produce like the best taro and the best fish from your catch to the knowledge-keeper. Your best tuba must be given to the Master and the best fish from your day’s catch must always be prepared and given to the Master. You will also have to care for him and always be humble. The Master must earn this trust from you in order to determine how much knowledge he will give you. So, people think that when one is learning this skill, they received it all. That is wrong. It can only be revealed in the PWO ceremony how much knowledge the Master is giving out to his apprentices by the measurement made by the Master on the underground oven, or “Uum”, or on the sacred bowl that the navigator is sworn in. Those are the only two areas that you will find how much knowledge is given to any apprentice.

Therefore, you see, we do not give it up. We are always committed to the saying in navigational terms when one of us is teaching others: “Did you spill all the seeds out?”  That means, did you give out everything? Our knowledge can be taught to all Micronesians including anybody from outside who is really interested. But it must be a person that you believe can possess some of our knowledge with humbleness and not showing off and possess all the other characteristics that are practiced in our islands.

As for who is responsible for deciding who will learn the traditional navigation, my answer is those individuals who choose and willingly want to commit to that knowledge. So, the Master cannot just go out and tell the people to come and learn from him. It depends on whomever wants to learn and is committed.

TFB: Should traditional navigation be taught in Micronesian schools? Do you approve of grand master Sesario teaching traditional navigation in Palau? 

AH: In order to save our unique and precious wayfinding system, I would recommend that it should be a must to teach that knowledge in our schools; and, yes, I am 100% happy and like that Sesario is continuing to teach traditional wayfinding in Palau.

Ali Haleyalur demonstrating wayfinding teaching tool (photo credit: Joyce McClure)

TFB: Would you be in favor of the Yapese or Chuukese government starting a program to teach traditional navigation?

AH: I would like very much for all the FSM states to start teaching traditional navigation. I can go around to the four states and help whoever is teaching it in those schools or other locations.

TFB: Would you be in favor of starting a private school of traditional navigation? 

AH: I would be very happy to start a private school to teach those who want to learn.

TFB: You say in your article that PVS, “asserts falsely that… our own people (Micronesians) were not interested in learning it (traditional navigation) and it was dying out.” However, there are many recorded accounts of Mau Piailug making similar claims. He is reported to have said that that is the main reason why he wanted to teach the Hawaiians, for the knowledge to live on.

AH: I saw all those clips of Mau saying those things and I disagree with him on those. Why? Because during that time there were so many navigators throughout the Carolinian islands.  When the high school opened in Ulithi, students started going there for their schooling, but every time we returned home for vacation, we continued to learn our culture. When I heard Mau saying those things, I laughed because I knew him very well and I think he said those things because he was with the Hawaiians, and those are the things he would say.

Our navigational school of learning never stopped; it was and continues to be ongoing. But during Mau’s lifetime, we learned at the men’s houses and in our homes, not like now when the children are learning in classrooms. Voyaging never stopped in our islands. It was a mistake that Mau said those things.

TFB: Would you agree that Nainoa Thompson along with PVS started a Pacific-wide interest to learn traditional navigation? An interest that has also benefited Micronesia?

AH: No, I don’t think so. Like I said, we never stopped voyaging in Micronesia like the Polynesians did. We have continued up to this very day, so they did not trigger our interest in practicing our wayfinding system. Micronesia has never benefited from Nainoa’s or PVS’s interest in reviving wayfinding. It never went extinct in Micronesia like it did in Polynesia.

TFB: If the sacred knowledge of traditional navigation were at risk of disappearing, would you consider having foreigners learn or record the teachings? Or would you rather have it disappear? 

Ali Haleyalur performing voyaging ceremony (photo credit: Joyce McClure)

AH: Honestly, I don’t believe that our knowledge will ever disappear. That is why I continue to teach the young generation so it will not fade away. We have so many navigators here in Yap and in Chuuk so it will never be lost.

TFB: Do you consider the system of navigation that is being used and taught at the PVS as “traditional”, “indigenous”, “Hawaiian”, “Polynesian”, or maybe “Micronesian”? Should they describe it as something else?

AH: I consider that it is a hybrid -- a little from ours and the rest solely based on science and mathematics and the creation of Nainoa.

TFB: You mention in your article that the “greatest insult and threat to our navigation culture is PVS’s cultural appropriation of our PWO ceremony… The Hawaiians have held public PWO ceremonies to bestow this fake title on Polynesians whom they want to recognize as master navigators even though they do not have the permission, authority, or knowledge to conduct this important initiation ceremony”.

AH: Yes, and I said that because I know that the PWO they perform is fake. How can they do it when they do not know the chants and the medicines to take. Theirs is a completely fake PWO.

TFB: In June 15, 2002 the Catholic church conducted an ordination in Satawal. The church chose to incorporate a traditional PWO ceremony within the ordination. However, Mau Piailug was against the idea, he openly showed disapproval. Is it fair to say that Christianity, namely Catholicism, is also guilty of cultural appropriation and even cultural erosion?

AH: Mau was not a believer in the Catholic faith and that is why he complained so much. The Catholic church did not come to us to do away with our culture and tradition; they came in and saw where it would fit in our culture and did not tell the people to throw away our culture.

TFB:  We at TFB, conducted a poll that asked the question, “Are Polynesians Culturally Appropriating Micronesian Navigation?”. In the comments section of that poll/article, the late Hawaiian master navigator Chad Baybayan, a student of Piailug, posted a lengthy response. At the heart of his response to our poll he wrote in reference to when Mau Piailug was invited to fly to Hawaii to help teach the Hawaiians traditional navigation, “once Mau arrived, he confirmed that the system that Nainoa (Thompson) had developed was exactly the same as Mau’s traditional system.” What are your thoughts on this comment by master navigator Baybayan?

AH: They are two very different systems. I do not know why Mau would say they are the same. I think it is because of our star compass that looks almost similar to theirs and those few things that Mau taught them. Mau did not look deep into their navigational system and so he just agreed that they are the same. My response is, no way!

TFB: There is a quote from Mau Piailug that sums up his vision for the future of traditional navigation. This quote was published in the Honolulu Star-Advertiser on July 29, 2010, and was paraphrased by master navigator Chad Baybayan: “I have laid the stick that connects people together. Now it is up to you, your generation, and the generations to come, to build upon that stick a bridge that will ensure the free sharing of information and teaching between the two peoples until the day we become united again as a single people, as we were once before; before men separated us with their imaginary political boundaries of today’s Polynesia and Micronesia”. What are your thoughts on Mau Piailug’s vision?

AH: I have seen the video of Mau speaking that includes this English translation. But in that clip, Mau never mentioned anything like this. He only talked about ignoring our culture and that we should teach the culture to our children; that we will teach the children because they are growing up and not the old people who will soon die.  But what I see in this and other quotes of Mau’s is not surprising to me as we navigators are trained to talk the “talk of the sea” and the “talk under the mast.” What that means is, even if I tell you something I did not really give you everything. I only gave you something so you will feel good about it, but I did not give you everything. I will never “spill the seeds.”

TFB: What can the PVS do to make proper amends?

AH: As I said in my recent editorial that appeared in the Pacific Island Times in June 2022, I have asked PVS to correct the falsehoods they have been promoting about Mau and what he taught Nainoa, and to cease using Mau’s name and references to his time working with PVS in ways that are not true. They appear to have finally revised their website and taken down nearly all of these misleading references and I thank them for that. But I also ask that they make certain that any journalists who contact them about writing articles are given the truth about Mau’s involvement with PVS and Nainoa in order to stop perpetuating the falsehoods and myths that evolved over the years about their system of navigation and PWO being the recipients of Mau’s knowledge of the Micronesian wayfinding system. They are not the same and it is deceptive to say otherwise.

Interview: Anthony Watson

TFB catches up with Palauan artist, Anthony Watson.

Here’s our first intervention with Anthony back in 2012.