Interview: Grand Master Navigator, Ali Haleyalur

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TFB = The Fourth Branch - Micronesia

AH = Ali Haleyalur

(June 26, 2022) (Edited: March 8, 2023)

TFB: Are you personally against Mau Piailug teaching the Hawaiians traditional navigation?

AH: No, I am not against Mau teaching the traditional navigation to the Hawaiians because I know and strongly believe that he would not give them the details like the sacred parts of our wayfinding knowledge; and, to be honest with you, every time Mau, who is my half-brother, came to Yap, he would always visit our dad and tell us all that was happening or what he gave the Hawaiians and what he did not give them.

TFB: You say in your article that, “sharing our entire knowledge of this sacred system is against our culture.” Can you please further explain this cultural taboo? Is the knowledge meant for Micronesians only? Which Micronesians? Who is responsible for deciding who can learn traditional navigation?

AH: The reason why I say that sharing the entire knowledge of this sacred system is only given to the children or nephews in the family is because of the sacred chants associated with the knowledge. They are very dangerous if you make mistakes while chanting them, and will backfire on you and the rest of the family who are the keepers of this knowledge.

Not only that, but because anyone who wants to learn this knowledge needs to pay tribute to the knowledge-keeper, or Master. In our islands, we must give more lava-lavas, coconut twine ropes and local produce like the best taro and the best fish from your catch to the knowledge-keeper. Your best tuba must be given to the Master and the best fish from your day’s catch must always be prepared and given to the Master. You will also have to care for him and always be humble. The Master must earn this trust from you in order to determine how much knowledge he will give you. So, people think that when one is learning this skill, they received it all. That is wrong. It can only be revealed in the PWO ceremony how much knowledge the Master is giving out to his apprentices by the measurement made by the Master on the underground oven, or “Uum”, or on the sacred bowl that the navigator is sworn in. Those are the only two areas that you will find how much knowledge is given to any apprentice.

Therefore, you see, we do not give it up. We are always committed to the saying in navigational terms when one of us is teaching others: “Did you spill all the seeds out?”  That means, did you give out everything? Our knowledge can be taught to all Micronesians including anybody from outside who is really interested. But it must be a person that you believe can possess some of our knowledge with humbleness and not showing off and possess all the other characteristics that are practiced in our islands.

As for who is responsible for deciding who will learn the traditional navigation, my answer is those individuals who choose and willingly want to commit to that knowledge. So, the Master cannot just go out and tell the people to come and learn from him. It depends on whomever wants to learn and is committed.

TFB: Should traditional navigation be taught in Micronesian schools? Do you approve of grand master Sesario teaching traditional navigation in Palau? 

AH: In order to save our unique and precious wayfinding system, I would recommend that it should be a must to teach that knowledge in our schools; and, yes, I am 100% happy and like that Sesario is continuing to teach traditional wayfinding in Palau.

Ali Haleyalur demonstrating wayfinding teaching tool (photo credit: Joyce McClure)

TFB: Would you be in favor of the Yapese or Chuukese government starting a program to teach traditional navigation?

AH: I would like very much for all the FSM states to start teaching traditional navigation. I can go around to the four states and help whoever is teaching it in those schools or other locations.

TFB: Would you be in favor of starting a private school of traditional navigation? 

AH: I would be very happy to start a private school to teach those who want to learn.

TFB: You say in your article that PVS, “asserts falsely that… our own people (Micronesians) were not interested in learning it (traditional navigation) and it was dying out.” However, there are many recorded accounts of Mau Piailug making similar claims. He is reported to have said that that is the main reason why he wanted to teach the Hawaiians, for the knowledge to live on.

AH: I saw all those clips of Mau saying those things and I disagree with him on those. Why? Because during that time there were so many navigators throughout the Carolinian islands.  When the high school opened in Ulithi, students started going there for their schooling, but every time we returned home for vacation, we continued to learn our culture. When I heard Mau saying those things, I laughed because I knew him very well and I think he said those things because he was with the Hawaiians, and those are the things he would say.

Our navigational school of learning never stopped; it was and continues to be ongoing. But during Mau’s lifetime, we learned at the men’s houses and in our homes, not like now when the children are learning in classrooms. Voyaging never stopped in our islands. It was a mistake that Mau said those things.

TFB: Would you agree that Nainoa Thompson along with PVS started a Pacific-wide interest to learn traditional navigation? An interest that has also benefited Micronesia?

AH: No, I don’t think so. Like I said, we never stopped voyaging in Micronesia like the Polynesians did. We have continued up to this very day, so they did not trigger our interest in practicing our wayfinding system. Micronesia has never benefited from Nainoa’s or PVS’s interest in reviving wayfinding. It never went extinct in Micronesia like it did in Polynesia.

TFB: If the sacred knowledge of traditional navigation were at risk of disappearing, would you consider having foreigners learn or record the teachings? Or would you rather have it disappear? 

Ali Haleyalur performing voyaging ceremony (photo credit: Joyce McClure)

AH: Honestly, I don’t believe that our knowledge will ever disappear. That is why I continue to teach the young generation so it will not fade away. We have so many navigators here in Yap and in Chuuk so it will never be lost.

TFB: Do you consider the system of navigation that is being used and taught at the PVS as “traditional”, “indigenous”, “Hawaiian”, “Polynesian”, or maybe “Micronesian”? Should they describe it as something else?

AH: I consider that it is a hybrid -- a little from ours and the rest solely based on science and mathematics and the creation of Nainoa.

TFB: You mention in your article that the “greatest insult and threat to our navigation culture is PVS’s cultural appropriation of our PWO ceremony… The Hawaiians have held public PWO ceremonies to bestow this fake title on Polynesians whom they want to recognize as master navigators even though they do not have the permission, authority, or knowledge to conduct this important initiation ceremony”.

AH: Yes, and I said that because I know that the PWO they perform is fake. How can they do it when they do not know the chants and the medicines to take. Theirs is a completely fake PWO.

TFB: In June 15, 2002 the Catholic church conducted an ordination in Satawal. The church chose to incorporate a traditional PWO ceremony within the ordination. However, Mau Piailug was against the idea, he openly showed disapproval. Is it fair to say that Christianity, namely Catholicism, is also guilty of cultural appropriation and even cultural erosion?

AH: Mau was not a believer in the Catholic faith and that is why he complained so much. The Catholic church did not come to us to do away with our culture and tradition; they came in and saw where it would fit in our culture and did not tell the people to throw away our culture.

TFB:  We at TFB, conducted a poll that asked the question, “Are Polynesians Culturally Appropriating Micronesian Navigation?”. In the comments section of that poll/article, the late Hawaiian master navigator Chad Baybayan, a student of Piailug, posted a lengthy response. At the heart of his response to our poll he wrote in reference to when Mau Piailug was invited to fly to Hawaii to help teach the Hawaiians traditional navigation, “once Mau arrived, he confirmed that the system that Nainoa (Thompson) had developed was exactly the same as Mau’s traditional system.” What are your thoughts on this comment by master navigator Baybayan?

AH: They are two very different systems. I do not know why Mau would say they are the same. I think it is because of our star compass that looks almost similar to theirs and those few things that Mau taught them. Mau did not look deep into their navigational system and so he just agreed that they are the same. My response is, no way!

TFB: There is a quote from Mau Piailug that sums up his vision for the future of traditional navigation. This quote was published in the Honolulu Star-Advertiser on July 29, 2010, and was paraphrased by master navigator Chad Baybayan: “I have laid the stick that connects people together. Now it is up to you, your generation, and the generations to come, to build upon that stick a bridge that will ensure the free sharing of information and teaching between the two peoples until the day we become united again as a single people, as we were once before; before men separated us with their imaginary political boundaries of today’s Polynesia and Micronesia”. What are your thoughts on Mau Piailug’s vision?

AH: I have seen the video of Mau speaking that includes this English translation. But in that clip, Mau never mentioned anything like this. He only talked about ignoring our culture and that we should teach the culture to our children; that we will teach the children because they are growing up and not the old people who will soon die.  But what I see in this and other quotes of Mau’s is not surprising to me as we navigators are trained to talk the “talk of the sea” and the “talk under the mast.” What that means is, even if I tell you something I did not really give you everything. I only gave you something so you will feel good about it, but I did not give you everything. I will never “spill the seeds.”

TFB: What can the PVS do to make proper amends?

AH: As I said in my recent editorial that appeared in the Pacific Island Times in June 2022, I have asked PVS to correct the falsehoods they have been promoting about Mau and what he taught Nainoa, and to cease using Mau’s name and references to his time working with PVS in ways that are not true. They appear to have finally revised their website and taken down nearly all of these misleading references and I thank them for that. But I also ask that they make certain that any journalists who contact them about writing articles are given the truth about Mau’s involvement with PVS and Nainoa in order to stop perpetuating the falsehoods and myths that evolved over the years about their system of navigation and PWO being the recipients of Mau’s knowledge of the Micronesian wayfinding system. They are not the same and it is deceptive to say otherwise.